Jaren terug had Sebas al zo een topic gestart. Ik heb net wat zitten lezen @ Si forums en dan kom je aardig wat interessante berichten tegen. Hier een paar daarvan.
Not specific to FM15, but my main issue with FM ME's in general is the whole concept of it, which I believe leads to many complaints I see in the forums. The engine calculates the result of a match, and what we see is the representation of what could have happened so that the match ended with that particular score. That's the tricky part. It is obviously clear that the players' attributes are important in calculating the match result, but how important are they when it comes to what we see in ME?
Let's say you and your opponents use a tactic that will make the goals from crosses more likely, because you are using 4 wingers and fullbacks, and the opponent plays with a very narrow formation. And for the sake of argument let's also say that you are by far the superior team. To me it feels like the engine will recognize your superior strength and let's say it will calculate a 4-0 for final score. The problem is, in hat situation the ME is likely to show you bunch of goals that came from crosses, and it will not care if your striker scoring those headers is 5'8, vs. bunch of 6'4 stoppers. I feel like ME is forced to show you a goal like that, and even though unlikely you would think it is, you will see many goals like that.
Or we can think about another example where a midfielder with long shot attribute as low as 8 scoring 2-3 screamers in a match. Hence we see people coming to the forums and complaining like 'how come my midfielders with 18 long shot can't hit anything where my opponent's midfielder with 9 long shot scored two from 30 yard, this game is rigged'.
Same applies to a common complaint about how the matches from lower leagues look the same as matches from premiere league. Then somebody answers 'you will see the difference if an LLM team plays against a premiere team', which is true but completely missing the point. If Chelsea will play against, say Plymouth, the ME will show how Chelsea dominated the match which ended 6-0, but then the ME will look exactly the same when Plymouth will beat an even weaker team 6-0. Plymouth's midfielders with 9 long shot will be able to score the same goals that Chelsea players scored against them.
I am just speculating, of course, but from what I see from FM ME's, attributes are taken into account only when calculating the ME, and not so much in the match representation.
After watching a lot of full games it seems to me that one major problem is that players lack any real intelligence. The decision, vision, anticipation and such stats seem pretty meaningless. I have world class players in pretty much all positions, but they consistently display lacking understanding of the game.
In real life great players transcend tactical instructions. Top class DC's like Terry and Vidic are not considered ball playing defenders, but they don't hoof the ball aimlessly up the pitch when they are under no pressure and have easy options. Pirlo and Xavi can pick out long range passes when they see Tevez or Neymar in acres of space up front, even though they are instructed to build from the back. If Ronaldo sees 5 guys closing him down from the center, but has acres of space wide, he goes wide even though he is an inside forward who is supposed to cut inside. The examples are pretty much endless.
In FM, players seem to strictly follow the instructions until they don't. And when they don't it is not to take advantage of an opportunity, it is a mistake.
Also, I find the most gifted technical players to be really bad at controlling the ball. World class strikers needing two touches to finish, when any striker worth his salt would volley it home in real life. Especially annoying with completed crosses and my striker gives the defenders an eternity to get in and block. And one touch passing is almost non existent because of the poor technique/first touch. I have seen Ronaldo and Messi fumble the ball and use several touches when it clearly is not necessary. They were not on my team, so it certainly helps me, but it looks absolutely ridiculous.
And I would like an instruction to my wide attackers to anticipate the target man flick ons. Right now they just don't seem to realize or care that I have instructed the deeper players to play long onto the target man, and amble around wide even when they should know the long ball is coming, and they have plenty of time to make the run.
But then, as it has been said in other posts, player movements appear to be lacking something as well.
However, I find it very uncanny that teams in the lower leagues can almost always stage a "comeback" towards the end of the game if they are still within ~2 goals. The changes that they make will almost ALWAYS have a huge impact, forcing you to adapt. Now, this is all fine and dandy and offers a nice challenge, but how is it realistic to watch these part timers play out of their skin in a regular league game? I mean, as long as there's still enough time left, you will see highlight after highlight of the AI bombarding you as if they had just been inspired by Rafa Benitez at Istanbul. Maybe not scripting or rigging, but I cannot help but feel there is some sort of tilt system in place, probably to do with player morale, and the AI abuses it regardless of their club stature and players. Unless your team is comfortably stronger than the opponent, you will almost always see these types of comebacks.
I have lost a few games this season, I reloaded the game a number of times to replay those fixtures and the games always ended up the same way. When I lost to Chelsea the first time I lost heavily, I was 3-0 down after 15 minutes, ended up losing 5-0. Reloaded the game, played everything the same and lost 3-2. I did this 11 times, sometimes changing tactics, line ups, no matter how close I came to winning or taking a point, I would always end up losing. At one point I was 2-0 up at HT, Chelsea had a man sent off and Remy was injured but still playing. In the 81st minute Chelsea got a penalty, 9 minutes later Remy had scored a Hat Trick and won 3-2. I could have played that fixture for a year and I wouldn't have won it. EXACTLY the same thing happened v Tottenham in the cup final, I played that fixture 14 times, no matter what happened I would always end up losing it by a goal. The last fixture I was 3-1 up, they had used all their subs and Adebayor got injured. They had to play the last 20 minutes with no striker. Of course they get a penalty and I get a player sent off (I assume for arguing with the referee) as he had nothing to do with giving the penalty away, they scored and made it 3-2. A minute later my player is running down the field with the ball, my other player runs across him, the ball hits his heel and sets their winger on his way. As he's running, my defender slides from behind, wins the ball but proceeds to roll the ball to Lennon's feet who sidefoots it home for 3-3. We go to ET. First minute of 2nd half of ET Christian Erikkson scores a free kick to go 4-3 up. The next time I see action, my player is taking a throw in 11 seconds before the end of the game, that's it, game over. 14 times Tottenham find a way of winning that game no matter what happened, same with Chelsea. Hard to believe that's ahh just coincidence.
Also, when you bring in a young inexperienced defender, he will almost always hit short back pass after short back pass.
Wat vinden jullie er van?
Citaat:
Not specific to FM15, but my main issue with FM ME's in general is the whole concept of it, which I believe leads to many complaints I see in the forums. The engine calculates the result of a match, and what we see is the representation of what could have happened so that the match ended with that particular score. That's the tricky part. It is obviously clear that the players' attributes are important in calculating the match result, but how important are they when it comes to what we see in ME?
Let's say you and your opponents use a tactic that will make the goals from crosses more likely, because you are using 4 wingers and fullbacks, and the opponent plays with a very narrow formation. And for the sake of argument let's also say that you are by far the superior team. To me it feels like the engine will recognize your superior strength and let's say it will calculate a 4-0 for final score. The problem is, in hat situation the ME is likely to show you bunch of goals that came from crosses, and it will not care if your striker scoring those headers is 5'8, vs. bunch of 6'4 stoppers. I feel like ME is forced to show you a goal like that, and even though unlikely you would think it is, you will see many goals like that.
Or we can think about another example where a midfielder with long shot attribute as low as 8 scoring 2-3 screamers in a match. Hence we see people coming to the forums and complaining like 'how come my midfielders with 18 long shot can't hit anything where my opponent's midfielder with 9 long shot scored two from 30 yard, this game is rigged'.
Same applies to a common complaint about how the matches from lower leagues look the same as matches from premiere league. Then somebody answers 'you will see the difference if an LLM team plays against a premiere team', which is true but completely missing the point. If Chelsea will play against, say Plymouth, the ME will show how Chelsea dominated the match which ended 6-0, but then the ME will look exactly the same when Plymouth will beat an even weaker team 6-0. Plymouth's midfielders with 9 long shot will be able to score the same goals that Chelsea players scored against them.
I am just speculating, of course, but from what I see from FM ME's, attributes are taken into account only when calculating the ME, and not so much in the match representation.
Citaat:
After watching a lot of full games it seems to me that one major problem is that players lack any real intelligence. The decision, vision, anticipation and such stats seem pretty meaningless. I have world class players in pretty much all positions, but they consistently display lacking understanding of the game.
In real life great players transcend tactical instructions. Top class DC's like Terry and Vidic are not considered ball playing defenders, but they don't hoof the ball aimlessly up the pitch when they are under no pressure and have easy options. Pirlo and Xavi can pick out long range passes when they see Tevez or Neymar in acres of space up front, even though they are instructed to build from the back. If Ronaldo sees 5 guys closing him down from the center, but has acres of space wide, he goes wide even though he is an inside forward who is supposed to cut inside. The examples are pretty much endless.
In FM, players seem to strictly follow the instructions until they don't. And when they don't it is not to take advantage of an opportunity, it is a mistake.
Also, I find the most gifted technical players to be really bad at controlling the ball. World class strikers needing two touches to finish, when any striker worth his salt would volley it home in real life. Especially annoying with completed crosses and my striker gives the defenders an eternity to get in and block. And one touch passing is almost non existent because of the poor technique/first touch. I have seen Ronaldo and Messi fumble the ball and use several touches when it clearly is not necessary. They were not on my team, so it certainly helps me, but it looks absolutely ridiculous.
And I would like an instruction to my wide attackers to anticipate the target man flick ons. Right now they just don't seem to realize or care that I have instructed the deeper players to play long onto the target man, and amble around wide even when they should know the long ball is coming, and they have plenty of time to make the run.
But then, as it has been said in other posts, player movements appear to be lacking something as well.
Citaat:
However, I find it very uncanny that teams in the lower leagues can almost always stage a "comeback" towards the end of the game if they are still within ~2 goals. The changes that they make will almost ALWAYS have a huge impact, forcing you to adapt. Now, this is all fine and dandy and offers a nice challenge, but how is it realistic to watch these part timers play out of their skin in a regular league game? I mean, as long as there's still enough time left, you will see highlight after highlight of the AI bombarding you as if they had just been inspired by Rafa Benitez at Istanbul. Maybe not scripting or rigging, but I cannot help but feel there is some sort of tilt system in place, probably to do with player morale, and the AI abuses it regardless of their club stature and players. Unless your team is comfortably stronger than the opponent, you will almost always see these types of comebacks.
Citaat:
I have lost a few games this season, I reloaded the game a number of times to replay those fixtures and the games always ended up the same way. When I lost to Chelsea the first time I lost heavily, I was 3-0 down after 15 minutes, ended up losing 5-0. Reloaded the game, played everything the same and lost 3-2. I did this 11 times, sometimes changing tactics, line ups, no matter how close I came to winning or taking a point, I would always end up losing. At one point I was 2-0 up at HT, Chelsea had a man sent off and Remy was injured but still playing. In the 81st minute Chelsea got a penalty, 9 minutes later Remy had scored a Hat Trick and won 3-2. I could have played that fixture for a year and I wouldn't have won it. EXACTLY the same thing happened v Tottenham in the cup final, I played that fixture 14 times, no matter what happened I would always end up losing it by a goal. The last fixture I was 3-1 up, they had used all their subs and Adebayor got injured. They had to play the last 20 minutes with no striker. Of course they get a penalty and I get a player sent off (I assume for arguing with the referee) as he had nothing to do with giving the penalty away, they scored and made it 3-2. A minute later my player is running down the field with the ball, my other player runs across him, the ball hits his heel and sets their winger on his way. As he's running, my defender slides from behind, wins the ball but proceeds to roll the ball to Lennon's feet who sidefoots it home for 3-3. We go to ET. First minute of 2nd half of ET Christian Erikkson scores a free kick to go 4-3 up. The next time I see action, my player is taking a throw in 11 seconds before the end of the game, that's it, game over. 14 times Tottenham find a way of winning that game no matter what happened, same with Chelsea. Hard to believe that's ahh just coincidence.
Also, when you bring in a young inexperienced defender, he will almost always hit short back pass after short back pass.
Wat vinden jullie er van?
Spant FM een complottheorie vs ons? ©Sebas
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