Hey people,
So I've got my commuter, the new Note, the other two I've got are getting difficult to keep on the road. I'd love to have the Voyager R&Red, but it's past the time in it's life where it should be a dailyish driver.... plus I can't depend on any car where it can take me 2 weeks to get parts. Either still might get pressed into service for another year though... depends how things go.
My requirements might sound rather complex. I've got some areas where I might tradeoff one thing against more capability elsewhere.
I (hopefully) won't be putting too many miles annually on this vehicle, so super good mileage is not required, but I'm trying to find the most efficient possible for it's utility and price.
What it has to do is...
Get through worst winter weather. ... deeper snow... snowmpg should be an official rating, I've gotten 12mpg in a 30mpg car dragging it's belly and thinking I'd do better in almost any pickup :D So, I either need AWD or FWD+ ground clearance. My wife needs to feel safe in it, this will be what she takes on the 25 mile commute when snow is more than 4" deep on the roads. I want something that's damn good on snow BEFORE I put winter tires on it, if it sucks bad on all seasons, it will only suck slightly less with winters. So I'm thinking 8" + of ground clearance is acceptable with only FWD and it needs 6"+ with AWD... Ground clearance is a bit hard to define, sometimes it might be given as only 4" for one low hanging suspension knuckle where the bellypan is a good 8" up in the air... I need least amount of snow drag, least likelihood of "beaching" on a wedge of snow... In my experience, Chrysler FWD minivans go through snow pretty good, while everyone I know who has had or driven the Kia and Hyundai compact and mid SUVs on snow in FWD form, says they are terrible at it.
Move people and stuff... I would like it to have decent cargo capability, for DIY and hobbies, vacation trips, hell I've worked my Escort Wagon like a pickup truck, and my Voyager like a U-haul. I've had months where my wagon has moved more in one month than many pickup owners have in a year. For the people moving thing, I don't really really need more than 5 seats, but if I don't have 6 or 7, I need 5 WHOLE seats, meaning adults butts or childrens car seats actually fit 3 abreast in the back. My parents generation had it easy when they could just stick 5 kids in the back seat. So 6 or 7 is a probable plus against an unknown theoretical 5.
Tow something... at minimum a popup camper, though would also be used for utility trailer and a small boat trailer. Official tow ratings sort of matter and sort of don't. I think scaling the tow rating by engine size is stupid, it's brakes, tires and suspension that count. Ergo, if the V6 model is same same there as i4 model, I figure the i4 can do it too.... If the rating is a flat 1000 on all motors and I can't see evidence it's FAR higher in Europe, then I'll call that useless for my purposes. (I've got a mental scaling of about 1.5:1 for Eur:US tow ratings, due to their speed limits and the varying trailer construction and hitch weights) i.e. 1000lb US and 1500lb UK would be about same capability, whereas 1000lb US and 3000lb UK would indicate that US might be underrated for marketing reasons. Though this is also affected by available hitch options, i.e. no point buying a 1000lb US rated on strength of 5000lb Eur ratings if available hitches are class 1 only.
I want to shoot for about 30mpg "doable" on highway and 25mpg "doable" in city. A fast warm up time would be preferred since it will likely do a lot of short trips in the week. "Doable" would mean that simple known mods, or basic sensible style would take it there. Efficient motors with worse than usual aero could actually be a win here, particularly if it's a very comfortable vehicle, then I'll be happy to loaf it along at 55 and get 30 on the rare longer trips, vs 15mpg at 70. (I'm told that Cherokees are like this but skeptical)
I want a 21st century vehicle, preferably 2005 up, but only have between 2000 and 5000 to spend, and not entirely sure about the full 5k. (Depends on a few things, and anything financial has seemed to have a habit of stretching out for months and months with me lately)
One of my first thought was Chrysler minis with the 2.4, but I'm not seeing them seem better than the 3.0 V6 and as careful as I can be with that, I can only get about 23 city... it's also somewhat short of 30 hwy. Also the 3rd and 4th gen vans have many issues I don't want to have to deal with. Not sure other minivans are worth considering either, some don't seem to have as much ground clearance, have problems I don't like the sound of etc.
Ideally I think I'd like to get a 1st gen Escape Hybrid, but due to rareity and being at the top of price range, it might be too difficult. Nice to consider if they fall in my lap at great prices would be the Highlander hybrid and Lexus 450h also. Other considerations are Liberty circa 2005ish diesel, and Grand Cherokee circa 2007ish diesel which also might be too high in price yet. Patriot might be a possible. Oh Nissan X-trails look intriguing, but they didn't sell in US so don't know if anyone can tell me much about them.
Been trying to consider everything, like maybe a Vibe or Matrix AWD instead, but mpg seems horrible, (As in, okay, I'll take the 3.8 V6 minivan instead kind of horrible). CR-Vs don't seem to hit the spot, they can't tow. Subarus haven't historically sold enough in this area, and we've only got a nearby dealer last year. Ergo, not quite enough good used ones around, and also parts rarer than typical in immediate locale. I am suspicious of their headgaskets also. I'm not in the "well if I run it for 3 years I probably won't need a headgasket" boat, I'm in the "I keep my vehicles for a significant fraction of eternity so at some point I will probably have trouble with that" boat.
So anything I'm missing that's outside the EPA range, is exceptional in one area, is just a great bargain used (From an economic standpoint I think the difference between 25mpg and 35mpg over 5 years for my expected mileage is only gonna be a thousand bucks at current pricing.) or etc.
I'm finding that a lot I can afford is in that "second malaise" period as I like to think of it, 1999ish to 2005ish where quality and gas mileage particularly sucked in general.
So anyone know any more un-trucks that anyone else would buy a truck in place of, that take a licking and keep on ticking?
RW222
So I've got my commuter, the new Note, the other two I've got are getting difficult to keep on the road. I'd love to have the Voyager R&Red, but it's past the time in it's life where it should be a dailyish driver.... plus I can't depend on any car where it can take me 2 weeks to get parts. Either still might get pressed into service for another year though... depends how things go.
My requirements might sound rather complex. I've got some areas where I might tradeoff one thing against more capability elsewhere.
I (hopefully) won't be putting too many miles annually on this vehicle, so super good mileage is not required, but I'm trying to find the most efficient possible for it's utility and price.
What it has to do is...
Get through worst winter weather. ... deeper snow... snowmpg should be an official rating, I've gotten 12mpg in a 30mpg car dragging it's belly and thinking I'd do better in almost any pickup :D So, I either need AWD or FWD+ ground clearance. My wife needs to feel safe in it, this will be what she takes on the 25 mile commute when snow is more than 4" deep on the roads. I want something that's damn good on snow BEFORE I put winter tires on it, if it sucks bad on all seasons, it will only suck slightly less with winters. So I'm thinking 8" + of ground clearance is acceptable with only FWD and it needs 6"+ with AWD... Ground clearance is a bit hard to define, sometimes it might be given as only 4" for one low hanging suspension knuckle where the bellypan is a good 8" up in the air... I need least amount of snow drag, least likelihood of "beaching" on a wedge of snow... In my experience, Chrysler FWD minivans go through snow pretty good, while everyone I know who has had or driven the Kia and Hyundai compact and mid SUVs on snow in FWD form, says they are terrible at it.
Move people and stuff... I would like it to have decent cargo capability, for DIY and hobbies, vacation trips, hell I've worked my Escort Wagon like a pickup truck, and my Voyager like a U-haul. I've had months where my wagon has moved more in one month than many pickup owners have in a year. For the people moving thing, I don't really really need more than 5 seats, but if I don't have 6 or 7, I need 5 WHOLE seats, meaning adults butts or childrens car seats actually fit 3 abreast in the back. My parents generation had it easy when they could just stick 5 kids in the back seat. So 6 or 7 is a probable plus against an unknown theoretical 5.
Tow something... at minimum a popup camper, though would also be used for utility trailer and a small boat trailer. Official tow ratings sort of matter and sort of don't. I think scaling the tow rating by engine size is stupid, it's brakes, tires and suspension that count. Ergo, if the V6 model is same same there as i4 model, I figure the i4 can do it too.... If the rating is a flat 1000 on all motors and I can't see evidence it's FAR higher in Europe, then I'll call that useless for my purposes. (I've got a mental scaling of about 1.5:1 for Eur:US tow ratings, due to their speed limits and the varying trailer construction and hitch weights) i.e. 1000lb US and 1500lb UK would be about same capability, whereas 1000lb US and 3000lb UK would indicate that US might be underrated for marketing reasons. Though this is also affected by available hitch options, i.e. no point buying a 1000lb US rated on strength of 5000lb Eur ratings if available hitches are class 1 only.
I want to shoot for about 30mpg "doable" on highway and 25mpg "doable" in city. A fast warm up time would be preferred since it will likely do a lot of short trips in the week. "Doable" would mean that simple known mods, or basic sensible style would take it there. Efficient motors with worse than usual aero could actually be a win here, particularly if it's a very comfortable vehicle, then I'll be happy to loaf it along at 55 and get 30 on the rare longer trips, vs 15mpg at 70. (I'm told that Cherokees are like this but skeptical)
I want a 21st century vehicle, preferably 2005 up, but only have between 2000 and 5000 to spend, and not entirely sure about the full 5k. (Depends on a few things, and anything financial has seemed to have a habit of stretching out for months and months with me lately)
One of my first thought was Chrysler minis with the 2.4, but I'm not seeing them seem better than the 3.0 V6 and as careful as I can be with that, I can only get about 23 city... it's also somewhat short of 30 hwy. Also the 3rd and 4th gen vans have many issues I don't want to have to deal with. Not sure other minivans are worth considering either, some don't seem to have as much ground clearance, have problems I don't like the sound of etc.
Ideally I think I'd like to get a 1st gen Escape Hybrid, but due to rareity and being at the top of price range, it might be too difficult. Nice to consider if they fall in my lap at great prices would be the Highlander hybrid and Lexus 450h also. Other considerations are Liberty circa 2005ish diesel, and Grand Cherokee circa 2007ish diesel which also might be too high in price yet. Patriot might be a possible. Oh Nissan X-trails look intriguing, but they didn't sell in US so don't know if anyone can tell me much about them.
Been trying to consider everything, like maybe a Vibe or Matrix AWD instead, but mpg seems horrible, (As in, okay, I'll take the 3.8 V6 minivan instead kind of horrible). CR-Vs don't seem to hit the spot, they can't tow. Subarus haven't historically sold enough in this area, and we've only got a nearby dealer last year. Ergo, not quite enough good used ones around, and also parts rarer than typical in immediate locale. I am suspicious of their headgaskets also. I'm not in the "well if I run it for 3 years I probably won't need a headgasket" boat, I'm in the "I keep my vehicles for a significant fraction of eternity so at some point I will probably have trouble with that" boat.
So anything I'm missing that's outside the EPA range, is exceptional in one area, is just a great bargain used (From an economic standpoint I think the difference between 25mpg and 35mpg over 5 years for my expected mileage is only gonna be a thousand bucks at current pricing.) or etc.
I'm finding that a lot I can afford is in that "second malaise" period as I like to think of it, 1999ish to 2005ish where quality and gas mileage particularly sucked in general.
So anyone know any more un-trucks that anyone else would buy a truck in place of, that take a licking and keep on ticking?
RW222
The 2nd vehicle, winter-beater+hauler+tow
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